Talk about complex legal issues. I felt like I was way in over my head, having children in only kindergarten.
There's texting, sexting, cheating, and cyberbullying isssues to name a few. Kids taking naked pictures of themselves and emailing them. Kids taking pictures of test answers and emailing them. Kids taking videos of their teachers and putting them on YouTube. Kids ganging up on other kids in cyberspace.
It is just unbelievable. My head started spinning.
Then there is the issue of parents and/or other children taking pictures during school activities or events and posting them to their blogs or on Facebook or Twitter. Did you know if a student at your school has signed the privacy statement stating that they do not want pictures of them published, then you photograph that child while photographing your own kid, and post that on your blog, or Facebook, or Twitter account, you can get in really big trouble?
Note that I took pictures of the back of the children's heads and then whited out the sides of their faces in my Halloween class pictures and then cropped my kids out. Note that you couldn't actually see the face of the sleeping man. I wouldn't have thought to do that if I had not attended that meeting.
Every single case the lawyer brought up during the meeting was backed by specific law cases that have already been tried. Their policy is literally evolving with each court case.
The other issue that schools are facing with internet use is when they can step in and discipline a student for something that happened in cyberspace in off school hours. For instance, if cyberbullying takes place on a Saturday night, then the student comes to school on Monday and pulls up all that garbage on a school computer on Monday, can the school step in and take action?
The Supreme Court says that if what your child does in their private time spills over and creates a disturbance at school during school hours, then the school can step in and discipline your child.
So if all sorts of nastiness happens on a Saturday night, and the kids come to school on Monday and it continues at school, then the school can discipline your child.
How timely then that two teen girls in Indiana are suing over being disciplined for racy photos they posted on their MySpace accounts during summer vacation. The ACLU has actually taken this one on.
If you haven't read that article, what happened was that two sophomore girls took pictures of themselves in lingerie, pretending to lick a penis-shaped lollipop and posted it on their MySpace accounts. Weeks later, someone printed the pictures out and brought them to school. The girls were student athletes and had agreed to hold themselves to a high ethical standard on and off the playing field, so they were suspended from school sports, had to make apologies for their behavior, and get counseling.
They are suing because they believe the pictures were posted in their private time and the school did not have a right to discipline them.
My own personal opinion is that the punishment fits the crime, and why aren't the parents more concerned over the fact their teenage daughters think it is okay to post pictures of themselves pretending to suck dicks, than whether their daughters should get in trouble for it? I mean, seriously, WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE? Wouldn't you just want to DIE if your kid did that? I am embarrassed FOR THEM, since they have NO SHAME.
As a parent, I would be wondering why I wasn't monitoring what my child was posting on MySpace in the first place, and I would also be pretty happy that my child wasn't being arrested. Did you know if your underage child posts naked pictures of themselves on the internet that is CHILD PORNOGRAPHY? I would be doing a big old sigh of relief that the girls at least had lingerie on, then I would destroy their computers and never let them outside again. But, instead, the parents are suing because little Sally isn't really a WHORE. She's just misunderstood. Poor baby.
Greg and I got in an argument about this on the way home from Phoenix. He accused me of picking and choosing my liberal social agenda, and why wouldn't I think the school was overstepping their boundaries?
Well, let's see. Someone brought the PHOTOS TO SCHOOL. Therefore it was a school problem. Why wouldn't the school step in then and take action? It's not like the school went combing the internet to see if every student was abiding by the moral and ethical standards required to play sports. The photos ended up in the school.
It seems to me that the ACLU and the girls' parents are wasting their time based on the previous Supreme Court ruling that if the action causes a disruption at school, then the school can discipline.
So I got a lot out of that board meeting. If you don't go to yours, you might consider one or two a year. It is interesting to get the inside scoop on how your school is handling big issues.
I will be checking in to see what you all think about this, as I lounge poolside at the Luxor, with Auntie Jodie From Disneyland, while the kids go swimming before school. Jodie was so kind as to email this preview yesterday. Afternoon kindergarten really sucks for my kids. While we are doing that, Greg will be out trying to finish the job of pulling a truck out of the Grand Canyon.
Meanwhile, don't post pictures of other people's kids at school on your blogs and make sure you hide your penis-shaped lollipops from your children.
28 comments:
When we tell people that we've disabled our kids phone internet capabilities they look at us like we've gone crazy. We figure if you take away their ABILITY to do those things, they are less likely to do them. So yeah, those of you with older kids - you CAN disable the phone's ability to send photos and access anything through the internet.
As for the school discipline issue - how timely for me to read this. My son got into some mischief several weeks ago. He and two other athletes faced an athletic disciplinary action. The other two families have threated the school with lawyers, blah blah blah. We are the only family that is letting the discipline stand. He got himself into some trouble, let him him serve the consequence. The school handbook clearly states what will and will not be tolerated as far as discipline. If we teach our kids to sue over crap like that we are teaching them to believe they are are above the law; then what offense are we willing to overlook next time?
About those girls... I think that the school *is* overstepping their boundaries. And if you knew me, you'd know that I would NEVER come to that if I thought that these girls were pawning child pornography.
The fact of the matter is... these girls were in their *lingerie*, which is sometimes less revealing than a two-piece swimming suit. They were pretending to lick a penis-shaped lollypop, which only makes me laugh. But seriously, this is not child pornography, this is no worse than beach shots.
I think the school overstepped their boundaries because those photos in NO WAY affect the school itself. There was nothing in the photo to suggest the school or anything-- it was just a racy photo, not pornography. I don't see the problem with what these girls did.
And if I were their parents-- I'd see the hilarity in it. I wouldn't be embarrassed, since I don't have a problem with that sort of thing... if they were showing off an inch more than they had been, then it would be a problem.
Maybe it was the way I was raised? Sex not being an embarrassing subject?
I would expect the kid(s) who brought the photos to school to be disciplined as well.
-K
Anon- the photos caused a ruckus at school. The question is not whether they were ponrography. They were suggestive enough that other students went ape shit over them. That created a disturbance. Now it is a school problem. Do you have any daughters? I would feel like a complete failure as a mother if my fifteen year old daughter was pretending to suck cock. I can't believe you would find that hilarious. WOW. We are on a completely different page in life.
HW- I think you are doing exactly what you should. You are so right. Let them make mistakes when the consequences are relatively low. The last thing you need is a 30 year old wanting you to bail them out of jail, because they got it in their head that you will always come to the rescue. You guys are such great parents!
The whole basis for the current decline in civilization is that girls put no value on themselves. This isn't new. but it is made way worse by all the technology that is available and the continual barrage of sexual images EVERYWHERE. Girls are constantly shown "servicing" boys and it goes as far as actually screwing while dirty dancing or cheerfully providing a BJ on a first date. They start thinking and talking about it as early as eleven and for many, put it into practice not long after. There doesn't seem to be the concept of love or romance anymore. Why would the guys even fake it? They don't need to. Girls in this country are not much better off than girls in the Middle East, as far as I can tell. Your grandma would say it's Revelations coming to pass...
Anon- there is nothing hilarious about a teenager mimicking a sex act like oral sex. Sex may not be "bad", but if those girls are mimicking it, it's likely they are engaging in it. Oral sex with multiple partners can lead to genital herpes in the mouth. Would it be hilarious if your daughter had giant blisters in her mouth for the rest of her life? Oral sex with multiple partners can lead to HPV (genital warts) in the mouth, which is the leading cause of throat cancer in people in their late 20s and early 30s.
Not really that funny to me.
It doesn't surprise me that the parents are suing the school..that is the world we live in. Funny you posted this because I was just on the phone to our school's principal this morning trying to get my daughter's internet usage revoked. The principal was literally appalled at the idea that I would let my daughter fail a class rather than coddle her and blame her mistakes on someone else. I told the principal too bad. My daughter has a career picked out and a goal on how she is going to get there, so now she has to step up and decide if what she is sneaking around and doing is more important that her goals. Apparently at this point the sneaking around is winning, but now it's going to affect her future goals. I'm hoping she comes to her senses soon.. LOL
Laura -
You speak of your daughter having a goal in mind for her future. I so agree. When teenagers reach the point that they have a future path chosen (as my son does) they have to realize that their decisions can effect that path. I don't believe teenage actions should effect their futures forever but I think it's okay to let them stew a while.
Michele S - Thanks for your encouraging words. Yes, Blake's actions were relatively minor (in fact I think your Greg would think they were hilarious) but we wanted him to face the consequences now - hoping to prevent MAJOR stupid behavior. Teenagers' brains really aren't fully developed to anticipate consequences. Really, our house is proof of that.
What about the kids that brought in the pictures to school? How is there so little blame/discussion going on about them? These girls, while what they did was not showing the best judgment, were not the ones to print out the pictures and bring them to school (if I am understanding correctly). Why is all the blame on them instead of the kids who actually caused all the trouble?
Julia- the articles are only addressing the girls because they are suing. Those kids, if the actual ones were caught, likely did get in trouble, I imagine, but I can find no reference of that in any articles. Of course, I would expect they receive the same discipline.
I act like a slut on the internet everyday, but then again it is in part my last name. It has nothing to do with my ability to lick weiners.
No one could believe I took Jeff's last name when we got married.
When I pick up my prescriptions the pharmacy codes them with the first four letters of our last name thus branding me a SLUT for filing purposes. Delta Airlines frequent flier program told me I would have to jump through all kinds of hoops to change my name in their system BUT if I wanted to hypenate with my maiden name I could do that over the phone, so I did. Now when I ticket myself on Delta I must use both names in order to get or use my miles. That is all fine and good except that their system only allows so many letters and spaces on the name line, so when I fly Delta I am Helene Eichenwald Slut.
There are clearly some issues with the word Slut these days, and when I saw the title of your post I was worried you were going to be outing my antics. I was relieved to see that the post was about someone else acting like a slut for a change.
Believe it or not we deal with these school discipline issues with our son- because he is a varsity football player everything he does falls under scrutiny by the school. It sucks more than those girls do- believe me there are times when they overstep into our personal lives over nothing. Sucking dick lollipops is inappropriate and mortifying but it is a parental problem not a school one. This is my opinion but keep in mind I am officially a slut!
I totally laughed at your comment about your argument with Greg about being inconsistent with your views. I don't read many blogs, but I always enjoy your's (and your comments on tc) because you ARE inconsistent. I love that you are not pushing an agenda, you put a lot of thoughts into your opinions and you always provide an interesting perspective. I don't always agree with you, but you do always give me something to think about.
I totally agree with you today. If that was my child, getting kicked off the school's sports team would be the least of her problems. Suing the school?...people are dumb.
I'm assuming that the school's ethics/standards policies for athletes are clear-cut and that the girls and their parents signed some sort of statement before participating, so I'm not sure I see the grounds for a suit here.
I'm likely to disable internet access for my kids' phones, too, and there isn't going to be any parental laughter at fake cock-sucking, either. If my daughters or son got up to anything like this, they'd lose privileges all over the place -- and if they cared about sports participation, we'd probably start right there, regardless of what the school did.
That having been said, I do have some civil-liberties concerns about schools policing kids outside school grounds. I mean, imagine that one of my kids completely lost his/her mind and did something assinine like this. We'd have disciplined that child and then some, but what if a friend grabbed the photos off the internet before we could catch it? I would object, very much, to the school stepping in to discipline my kid further for something that happened during summer vacation and that I'd already addressed.
This would be assuming that my kid hadn't signed some sort of behavior pledge to participate in an activity: if you enter into a contract, you damn well stick to that contract, and take the consequences if you don't.
[As an aside, I have a really hard time imagining that my teenager will get a MySpace account, although I nod in the direction of the irony there, given my own blog. I suspect they will have Facebook pages, or whatever the Facebook-equivalent is in five years, but they won't be allowed to have their computers in their rooms, either.]
Oh good god, Helene! You have me rolling!!!
Horrifying as a parent? Yes. Then again, I have some pretty interesting photos of my best friend and I licking salt off ourselves and doing tequila shooters in our Junior year of high school. Hahaha...
From a legal standpoint, I believe if the pictures aren't racy enough to be considered child pornography (hence no arrest) they shouldn't be punished by the school for taking them UNLESS they were directly involved in their being brought to school. IMO, it's the kids who printed them out and spread them around who should be smacked with the harsh penalties.
That said, if it was one of my girls, I'd have a serious discussion with them about self esteem, the impressions things like that give off, and how the internet is an unforgiving place.
I just have to say.. for all those parents out there with teens with picture phones w/ internet.. you have no idea what your children are doing.
We had this issue with my step children.. taking a digital camera taking nude pictures of him self and emailing them to another student from his catholic high school. she also exchanged pictures with him.. thankfully this all happened at his mothers house.. because she is a loser and doesn't monitor internet use etc but hello... how would you like to go to jail because your kid did this on your home computer? or lose your job because you get busted for child prono on your home computer?
If your kids have a picture phone than I guarantee that they are taking some sort of pictures of themselves and sending them to others.. my step daughter had her picture phone for three days and had over 300 suggestive pictures of herself and she was only 12... seriously.. someone explain to me why they need a picture phone? Just a reg old cell phone for contacting parents etc is just fine and dandy people... I have also seen pictures of the athletic directors son getting high at a party along with several other team mates... if they have taken a oath to hold themselves to a higher standard and are caught breaking those rules then they should be kicked off the team.
I am shocked that someone thought it was funny to have a teen pretend to suck a cock.. seriously.. what the heck is wrong with you!
I am not a prude or afraid to talk about sex but I sure as hell don't want my kids to be raised to think it has no value.
I am curious about the law regarding the signed the privacy statement stating that they do not want pictures of them published.
How would a parent know which children have a signed the privacy statement? Wouldn't it be an invasion of privacy for the school to tell me who has one and who doesn't? I certainly wouldn't want to get in trouble for posting a photo of someone who wasn't supposed to be photographed.
At my sister's kids school, if a child has a signed privacy statement that they are not to be photographed, that child is not allowed to participate in any events such as sports, concerts, etc. because someone might take a photo of them. An example would be if my child was in basketball and I took a picture of him dribbling down the court as he passed a student from another school and caught the other kid in the photo too. The school cannot prevent that from happening unless they ban cameras, phones, video, etc. from all spectators. So instead they ban the kids from participating.
This is interesting and I am curious to read a court case involving it to see how it was handled.
Anon at 8:48: From what I can remember from the meeting when my head was spinning, is that if the child's picture is taken at a public event, then you are okay. If the picture is taken in the classroom, when there is a ressonable expectation of privacy, then you cannot publish that picture. However, there is a lot of gray area and the school was grappling with this.
The case they were dealing with was when a 300 pound football coach had to substitute in the kindergarten class and someone got him on video doing the Tootie Tot and put it online. It was HILARIOUS. BUT when they discovered that one of the children in kindergarten that had a privacy statement signed was in the video, the school had to get it off line and quick. No lawsuit fortunately.
I really think it comes down to the parents and educating your kids. I personally sat my son down and told him all the ways you could be put in jail or thrown out of school if he takes pictures that are inappropriate. We also covered all the different way we/parents could be sued if he does different things. We have gone over and over it. I check his phone weekly for texts and pics. I also have internet and email messaging blocked on his phone so he will never receive a pic from someone else that would get him in trouble. Our computer is out in the family room where I can monitor what he is doing. The funny thing is he is so immature , at 13, that what I found on his phone was so BOY, he took a picture of the biggest piece of poop I have ever seen in my entire life. GROSS!! I wasn't even sure what I was looking at at first but then my husband figured it out.
As far as the case Michele referred to in this post, well their action spilled over into school they should lose privileges. Had the pictures not been on line the could not have been printed and brought to school to cause the disruption. When you post something like that you run the risk that anyone can take your image and do what they want with it which comes down to lack of education/ethics/self respect. Those girls posted that so it would be seen why else would they. What a trashy thing to do. I really don't understand what has happened to girls self respect these days. They don't have any.
My parents always bailed my sister out of everything, from a "mean" teacher in 2nd grade to still paying her car insurance when she was 24. She is about 30 now and can still barely wipe her own ass, crying when work calls her in and she has other plans or even in her personal life where life revolves around her outfits, money and everything else superficial.
By constantly bailing her out (or being in denial when she needed help with drugs or abusive boy friends) and never anything being her fault, she is an unhappy person. She has no sense of being proud of herself or being amazed at her own accomplishments. She can not even call up her own sense of style to decorate her own place.
They think they were protecting her, as I am sure these people think they are doing for their own daughters by suing, but living in a situation where a child is never to be blamed, I know that long term, they are not doing her any favors. They are just setting her up for a sad life down the road.
I think it's a good learning experience for all. I say, let the school punishment stand. They should be booted off the sports teams and suspended. And so should the kids who brought the stuff to school in the first place.
Kids need to learn about the repercussions of 'screwing' around (especially on the internet) and they should learn them, before they get out in to the work force and "jokes" like that could cost them their career.
It's pretty disturbing.
First - that sex, sex, sex is so marketed it permeates every nook and cranny of society. Do you notice how frequently it is a leading topic on Twitter??
Second - that more kids today are engaged in sexual activities and dressing the part of tramps and pimps then when *I* was a kid. My mother actually taught me modesty and self worth. Sadly far too many kids these days lack it. I fear for subsequent generations.
Third - that the technology exists and is so easily accessible that kids can get themselves in to difficult situations, very quickly. (Remember the Dateline expos??)
Fourth - that the parents are clearly NOT WATCHING their kids and/or unconcerned that inappropriate material and activities are happening DIRECTLY UNDER their noses.
Fifth - that people are so concerned about their LIBERTIES and oh, you're stepping on my civil rights!! I'm gonna SUE!!
I must be getting old. I feel like hitting something with a cane.
Helene, everytime I see a surname like yours, I think,"That must be a wonderful man!" But I can imagine that ordering a pizza must be an issue. I still remember when I was a gubmint wurker and a couple that just got married came in to change both their names to HER surname. She refused to be Mrs Dick and I imagine the husband was tired of it by that time, too.
I really think its sad that the schools even feel like they have to step in a discipline in situations that should be handled at home.
Unfortunately many, many parents just don't do it. They either don't care or they are too ignorant to realize just what their children are doing.
Kudos to those of you who are stepping up and supporting (even going further to add to) the punishments that schools hand out. HW, Laura and Michele... great job!
I think just like a lot of things, this should be handled on a case by case basis. The kids who brought the photos to school should be punished. If there WAS pornography in the photos, the girls should be punished. If there is not porn in the photos (which I'm not really sure it was from what was described) the school should have notified the parents that the "questionable" photos where out there and show their concern for the situation and leave it at that.
This is a situation (with the girls) that should be handled by the parents. The school should notify the parents and that is that.
NOW with that said, if the girls had signed a code of conduct that stated that behavior such as this was unacceptable, they should be punished according to what was laid out in that code of conduct. But that is the only instance where they should be punished by the school.
Saying all that, if one of those girls were MY daughter and I found out about those photos, the school's punishment would be the LEAST of her problems. She'd wish Mrs. Principal was her mommy by the time I got done with her.
Guilty until proven innocent, baby. That was my mom's motto and mine today. You shall be held accountable to the fullest extent until you can either prove a) you are worthy b) you are innocent or c) you are the queen of England or the Virgin Mary.
By the time she ever got to SEE a basketball, baseball or pom pom again, she wouldn't know what it was.
She'd be 35 and saying things like "School dance? What's that? Friends? I didn't have any after 9th grade. Graduation? Yeah I heard something about that, but I didn't get to go. I got my diploma in the mail."
Well...you know i am an attorney, and I live in Los Angeles, and our school has a really strict policy against taking photos of other kids. That's why on my blog you never see other kids, unless I know the parents and they've agreed to let me photograph their children. Usually, I will only post a photo of my child's friend IF their parent also has a public blog. Thankfully, my child's two best friends' parents have public blogs (one of which is a popular blog)...
so...
yea, i've been thinking about these issues a lot.
i think the teen disciplinary thing depends on if the school is private or public...and how the atheltics fits into that. i went to private high school for my first two years of high school, and they OWNED us. public school...not so much!
Helene, you have me laughing with the miles abbreviation of your name. I cannot imagine hearing someone calling that in an airport and the snickers that must ensue. I think that the school is reaching a bit going back to things posted in summer...isn't that the parents job? Shouldn't the parents know what is going on? If they don't care, then I can see the school intervening. I grew up in an age without internet and cell phones, and my children won't have a cell phone until they are at least driving (because they can't walk to school here, it's over 8miles away). We will monitor them on the internet also. I agree about letting your daughter "sink or swim" Laura, good for you! I won't ever make excuses for my children's stupidity, if they do something stupid and irresponsible they will pay the price for that action. As for sex, I'm going to have the talk with my daughters probably about 9 or 10, watered down version, but I want them to know they can come to me, and since my husband's 9 year old niece just told her step Mom a boy asked her to "do it" with him...I want them to know it's not time. I can't believe I just wrote that...she's 9!
Yes there should be more personal accountability among teens and their parents.
But hey a mother and father of an 18yo American Legion Player just won a $750000+ settlement against an aluminum baseball bat manufacturer. There son died after being struck in the head by a ball batted of an aluminum bat. They claim that the bat manufacturer did nothing to make pitchers and other players aware of the dangers of aluminum bats.
As long as frivolous law suits like this are rewarded with GIANT, IRRATIONAL settlements, people will sue and a lot will win.
~Sigh~ The moral turpitude of our country and citizens as a whole is on a major backslide.
FYI - when you think you are monitoring your kids myspace or facebook - they can also make an account under another name. This one is their real account with their nickname. The other account is the one they let you see.
My friends daughter did this. My friend thought she was the good mom watching her daughters account and she was a good girl. Come to find out she had a nickname and was really using the other account posting pics like the one you mentioned.
If kids what to do it, they will find a way. You always have to stay one jump ahead of them.
I love HW. Good for you. How will your child learn right from wrong unless you as a parent enforce it.
We need more parents like you.
I applaud you !
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